Christopher Pappas (00:14) Welcome back everyone! Today we are discussing a topic that is changing the way learning technology companies think about marketing, visibility and how buyers discover vendors. The way people search solutions is evolving. Buyers are educating themselves for longer, comparing more options, reading reviews, watching videos, joining webinars, and asking AI tools for recommendations before they even speak to a company. Joining me are Annita who is been helping shape our brand and content strategy, and Maggie, who hears directly from the companies trying to stand out in this market. I'm really looking forward to this discussion because I think there is often a gap between how companies think buyers discover them and how buyers actually make decisions today. So let's begin with Maggie. Let's start with a simple question. What is the biggest change you have noticed in the way buyers discover vendors today, Maggie? Maggie (01:24) Good morning, Christopher. Good morning, Annita. Very happy to be here again. Buyers have become much more independent, Christopher. Like five years ago, someone might have searched Google, landed on a vendor's website, requested a demo, and then started asking the questions. Today it's almost the opposite. By the time they book that first demo, they've often done hours or even days of research. They've read comparison articles, looked at reviews, watched videos, listened to podcasts. They may even have asked a GPT or another AI assistant to compare different vendors. So when sales finally joins the conversation, buyers aren't starting from zero anymore. They've already formed that opinion. Christopher Pappas (02:06) Maggie, that is really interesting because it almost sounds like the first sales conversation isn't actually the first conversation anymore. Let's say it's simply the first time the vendor joins a conversation with the buyer. Annita, you see it that way? Annita (02:22) Hello from me as well. Well, yes, absolutely. I actually think that that's one of the biggest mindset shifts marketers need to understand. Buyers aren't just searching anymore, they are investigating. They are looking for confidence, they want to understand the market, they want validation, they want reassurance that they are making the right decision before they even talk to a salesperson. And AI has accelerated that behavior dramatically. So instead of opening, let's say, 100 browser tabs, that's what I'm doing usually when I try to buy something, buyers Christopher Pappas (03:01) I have done it as well. Annita (03:05) I can now ask an AI tool, which LMS is for employee onboarding? What's the difference between the platforms? What should I look for when choosing a compliance training provider? I mean, these are questions that everyone makes when looking for a tool or a provider, and within seconds, they have a starting point. So that doesn't really replace research. It simply makes research much faster. Maggie (03:37) Like that. Christopher Pappas (03:38) Annita and Maggie, sorry for the interruption guys. And I think in order to help these guys, this is the reason that we published a lot of prompts, good and validated prompts that they can use on LLMs for making these questions even better. I have published a lot of relevant content on LinkedIn, for example, about that, how to make the prompt even better because the thing is it is not just publishing a question it's writing a proper prompt to get a proper answer, right? Maggie (04:12) 100%. Annita (04:12) Yes, you need the right question definitely. Christopher Pappas (04:15) Yeah, yeah. So, for the interruption. Please continue. Maggie (04:20) Sorry, I was saying that I think people sometimes just assume AI is replacing that buyer journey, but it isn't. It's actually just helping buyers move through that journey more efficiently. And there's an opportunity there, you know, it's not a threat. Annita (04:35) Exactly, AI isn't replacing research, it's making it run faster as I said before and people still want evidence. They want to read reviews, they want expert opinions, to read customer stories, success stories, they are simply searching those sources much faster than before. Christopher Pappas (04:55) Annita, because I do that, as a test and I find it really valuable, you talked about reviews. What I'm doing is that I'm checking the reviews, let's say, on one directory, but I compare these reviews versus other directories in order to come up with the best solution to my problem. So guys, keep that in mind. They're just not checking. They cross-reference the reviews. Annita (05:22) You avoid bias Christopher Pappas (05:23) it is a really important distinction because every time AI comes up, the conversation quickly becomes, is search engine optimization dead? Will websites disappear? Will nobody use Google anymore? But that's not really what's happening. What's happening is that the buyers now have another way of exploring their market. Would you agree, guys? Maggie (05:50) Definitely, definitely. If anything, buyers are becoming even more informed. The difference is that instead of spending hours gathering information from different websites, AI helps them organize all of this. And therefore they can reach a decision much faster. That means buyers often arrive at a vendor conversation with clearer expectations, which if you think about it is quite nice for salespeople. They're much more informed before they join that conversation. And obviously this offers opportunity to influence them before they arrive at that call. Christopher Pappas (06:24) I don't imagine, I think that it is a fact that the marketing role is changing. Because if buyers already have an opinion before they speak to a company, to a representative, to a salesperson, they have an interaction with a vendor, they have an opinion. So marketing suddenly becomes responsible for influencing much earlier stages of the buying journey. Right, Maggie? Maggie (06:56) Exactly. Like marketing. Annita (06:56) Sorry, can I add something here? Maggie (06:58) Sure. Sure. Christopher Pappas (06:59) Yeah, yeah, Annita (07:01) I just wanted to mention here that, for example, there are plenty of times that you'll see users using the same wording that the marketing team of the vendor has used in the copy. So they say that, you know, it's something about the tool that they had already seen on the website, but they also felt the real experience while using it. Christopher Pappas (07:27) That is a fair statement. what they see, they use the same language, let's say, from the marketing. Annita (07:35) Yes, exactly. Christopher Pappas (07:37) Yeah, that is a fair statement. Maggie (07:41) Yeah, we've definitely seen that happen in in a lot of calls that we've been having. and you know, marketing used to focus primarily on generating awareness and bringing people to a website. Today it's also sharpening perception long before a lead ev ever interacts, you know, with with a CRM. So that's a very different responsibility for a marketing team. Annita (08:04) And I think that where many companies still think too narrowly, marketing isn't just attracting attention anymore, it's helping buyers make better decisions. So this is why educational content has become so important. I mean, you have articles, research, webinars, expert interviews, podcasts, industry reports. These aren't just marketing assets anymore, they are decision-making assets. They are helping buyers build confidence and finally decide what they're going to buy. Christopher Pappas (08:43) I love that phrase decision making assets. Okay, because it changes how we think about content altogether. You are not producing content just to generate clicks. You are producing content to help someone feel confident enough to move forward. Annita (09:05) And confidence is becoming one of the most valuable currencies in marketing nowadays because information is everywhere. AI can summarize the information as Maggie said before and you, like you said you are comparing reviews for example. Google can index the information but what buyers are really looking for is the confidence that this is for them, this thing solves their problem. Who understands this space? Who can I trust? Who's actually helping me solve my problem? Maggie (09:39) Which is probably why we're seeing educational bonds perform so well, right? the companies that consistently teach, explain, and help, they often become the companies buyers remember later. Christopher Pappas (09:50) Maggie thought it's an interesting observation. Why am I saying that? Because let's say that maybe marketing isn't changing from SEO to AI. Maybe it's changing from attracting visitors to building trust much earlier in the customer journey. Annita (10:12) And I think that that's where companies need to evolve their thinking. They are no longer just competing to be found. They are competing to become the brand's buyer's trust. And also the brand's AI trust, because AI needs to trust it enough to recommend it. So you have to find a solution for that. Christopher Pappas (10:34) Right, right. So guys, you both mentioned about the AI several times, okay? But we haven't talked about what that means from self-changing optimization itself. So my suggestion will be to talk about, to answer. Is AI replacing self-changing optimization? Changing SEO? Or are we looking at an entirely new layer of marketing strategy? Annita (11:04) It's funny you are asking this because yesterday I was checking LinkedIn and I bumped into a post that said, SEO is dead for the 20th time, let's say, because every year everyone says Is SEO dead? So, you know, this is something, a question we've heard it a lot through the years. For me, GEO... Christopher Pappas (11:28) Annita, sorry for the interruption, but I'm laughing. Why am I laughing? Because the last 15 years, every year I read an article about eLearning is dead. 15 years is dying. And SEO has, yes, I have seen a lot of posts about such as anonymization that is dying as well. Annita (11:47) And one more, is LMS dead? Are authoring tools dead? You know, it's a classic, yeah. Christopher Pappas (11:52) Yeah, yeah Annita (11:56) So for me, GEO isn't replacing SEO. Let's say it's building on it. SEO has always been about helping search engines understand your content so people can find it. GEO is about helping AI understand your expertise, your authority, and your relevance so they confidently recommend your brand when someone asks a question. That's the main difference. Because the goal isn't just to appear in the search results anymore. The goal is to become one of the brands AI considers credible enough to mention. And that's why I often say that the SEO helps you get discovered. GEO helps you get recommended. I don't know if you agree. Christopher Pappas (12:51) Actually, I like that because it removes this idea that companies need to throw away everything they have been doing for the last years. guys, good SEO still matters. It's more than obvious. Great content still matters. Even if sometimes we confuse... the formats of content. Whenever we say content, some people think about articles. It's not about articles. Articles is a format of content. Okay. There are several types of formats. Yes, tech optimization still matters, but now there is another layer. Instead of asking, can Google find us? Companies needs also to ask. Would AI confidently recommend us? What do you think about that Maggie? Maggie (13:44) When I speak with vendors, they're measuring rankings, traffic, clicks, conversions. Now these metrics are still valuable, but they're no longer telling the whole story. Because buyers may discover your brand through AI long before they ever visit your website. Christopher Pappas (14:02) And that is fascinating because marketers have spent years optimizing for clicks. Now we might have situations where buyers never click at all. They simply receive a recommendation. Okay. And that changes what success looks like. What do you think Annita about that? Annita (14:27) I think it does. We've traditionally measured success by asking how many visitors came to our website. But going forward, another important question would be how often is our brand part of the conversation? Because this is exactly what we've wondered about our own brand, right? I mean, we were always looking Christopher Pappas (14:50) 100%. Annita (14:51) for the organic traffic and how things are going, but now we understand the difference that you need to be mentioned, you need to be trusted, so you have to be in third-party sites as well. Because visibility isn't only happening on your website anymore, and obviously it's also happening in AI-generated answers. So you have to be in AI, in conversations in comparison articles, very important because that's when people are choosing what to buy in directories. Again, people are looking for tools and vendors at that moment in podcasts because podcasts are about the trends. They are the conversations of the industry right now. So plenty of people are listening to podcasts when they want to, make a decision or where they have a problem about something. The same goes for videos, Reddit discussions. So every one of those becomes another signal that helps AI understand who you are and what you are known for. It's a combination of all these things. Christopher Pappas (15:59) So guys, let's say that visibility is no longer a destination. It's an ecosystem. Maggie (16:08) Yeah, I love that. It really is an ecosystem, and buyers behave exactly the same way. You know, very few people make decisions based on one source. They compare, they validate, they cross check. So it actually makes total sense that AI also checks for multiple signals before recommending a company, right? Christopher Pappas (16:28) And that is a really interesting point. Because sometimes people imagine AI as some mysterious black box. But in reality, it's looking for credibility, consistency and evidence. It's as simple as that. Annita (16:44) Right on Chris. Think about how you would recommend a company to a friend. You probably wouldn't say, well they wrote a really good blog post. You'd say, I've seen them mentioned. Everywhere. On Reddit, on Facebook, on LinkedIn. They seem to know what they're talking about. You'd probably say, people respect them. I've read positive reviews. They've published useful research. These are the stuff that people find valuable, not just a blog post. Maggie (17:20) Annita, 100%. So AI doesn't just read your website, it actually reads your reputation. Christopher Pappas (17:27) I love that. I love that Christopher Pappas (17:28) Maggie. I love that Maggie. And guys, one more time, let me tell you that. If you have the same reviews across several directories, it will be more than obvious what you're doing. people are not searching on one specific place for reviews. They're searching across the internet. And right now with LLMs, it's much easier to do that. Our customers are smart. Annita (17:53) They want authenticity and they can obviously understand if there are copy-pasted reviews on different sites. Christopher Pappas (18:07) And back to Maggie's statement that LLMs, they don't read your website, they read reputation. I think that right now that is probably one of the biggest minds and shifts. For years, companies invested heavily in own media, their own website, their own blog, their own landing pages. Okay. And that's good, and they should continue doing that. But now we are talking much more about credibility. Maggie (18:39) Yes, yes, exactly. Because buyers trust independent validation. they trust awards, they trust customer reviews, industry publications, top lists, analyst opinions, case studies. Those things actually reduce risk for them. And buying enterprise software is largely about reducing risk, right? Christopher Pappas (19:04) That is a great point, especially nowadays. Some people often think that they are buying software. That's not the case, guys. They're actually buying confidence that they are making the right decision. I'm not going to buy a software Annita (19:18) Exactly. Christopher Pappas (19:20) if I'm not 100 % sure that I'm making the right decision. Annita (19:24) Obviously, and that's why I don't think companies should ask how do we rank higher anymore. I think the better question is how do we become impossible to ignore? Because when your expertise consistently appears across trusted sources, then buyers notice, AI notices, the market notices, and you get the results you want. Maggie (19:48) Yep. Authorities is built where people talk about you, not where you just talk about yourself. Christopher Pappas (19:54) Wow, wait, wait, wait, please repeat that. Maggie (19:58) So in my opinion, authority is built where people talk about you, not just where, you know, you're talking about yourself. Which unfortunately, you know, we Christopher Pappas (20:07) I love that. Maggie (20:09) do a lot of in the market. Christopher Pappas (20:13) So if we bring this back to the learning industry, what does that actually mean for a learning technology vendor? Or an eLearning service company, such as a content provider? Or a compliance training company? Should they all suddenly become AI experts? Annita (20:35) Well, no, I actually think that's where many companies overcomplicate things. They don't need to become AI experts, they need to become more trustworthy companies. Because AI rewards many of the same things buyers already value. As we said, it's the clear positioning, useful content, real expertise, customer success stories, Maggie (21:00) Exactly. And that's reassuring because the companies that have invested in educating the market, they're building stronger brands. Annita (21:08) Those who have always mattered, things haven't changed that much. They simply becoming even more important now. Maggie (21:16) It's reassuring because the companies that have invested in educating the market, building strong brands and earning trust already have a very strong foundation. They're not just starting from scratch. They're building on years of credibility. Christopher Pappas (21:32) So we have talked about buyer's behavior. We have talked about search engine optimization involving into something broader. But there is one word we have mentioned several times now without really unpacking it. Authority. Everyone says it's important. But what does authority actually looks like in practice? And more importantly, how do companies build it? Let's explore that next. Annita (22:05) For me, authority isn't about publishing more content. It's about becoming a trusted source of knowledge. So when buyers consistently associate your brand with expertise they know what you're known for and they trust if your brand is part of the actual conversation and obviously if it's probably worth paying attention. That's a very different thing from simply producing content every week. Christopher Pappas (22:35) So Annita, authority is not about volume, it's about reputation. Annita (22:42) Exactly. Authority isn't something you publish, it's something you earn. You earn it through consistency, having your experts talk about the things they know, through helping people, businesses, delivering value over time. You have to be the expert who is giving the solutions. So some companies are always talking, but it's like they're saying nothing. Christopher Pappas (23:09) So brands don't become authorities because they talk the most. They become authorities because people trust what they say. I think that with brands apply to human beings as well. Maggie (23:24) That's right. And I think that's especially true in B2B. Buying a learning platform isn't an impulse purchase. There are budgets involved, stakeholders involved, there's there are long evaluation cycles, there's risk. People naturally look for reassurance before making that decision. That's why credibility here becomes so important. Christopher Pappas (23:44) And Maggie, where does that credibility come from? Because I think many companies still believe if we write enough blog posts, people will trust us. Is that enough anymore? Maggie (23:59) Absolutely not. You know, content is part of it, but buyers also look beyond your own website. They're asking questions like who else is talking about this company? Have they won awards? Are customers recommending them? have industry experts mentioned them? Can I find independent reviews? They're looking for multiple trust signals all the time. Christopher Pappas (24:20) it is fair to say that that's exactly how people buy almost anything today. Even when you're buying something personal, we rarely rely on one source. compare, we validate, ask other people. So enterprise buying is becoming very similar. Annita (24:39) That's right, and that's why I often say that your website introduces your brand, but the rest of the internet is what builds your reputation. Because buyers don't experience your company in one place anymore, they can see everywhere people talking about you. They can see it in every article, in reviews, webinars... customer success stories, they know more about you than you think. So yeah, all these things help people and AI understand your brand better. Maggie (25:22) Reputation isn't built in one channel, it's built across an entire ecosystem. Christopher Pappas (25:28) Yeah, which makes me think, brands suddenly become much more important. Because if buyers are consuming information from 10 different places, they need something that connects all those experiences together. Maggie (25:43) Absolutely. And I think this is where some companies confuse branding with visual identity. A logo isn't a brand, right? A color palette isn't a brand. A brand is what people remember about you when you're not in the room. Christopher Pappas (25:57) I love that, I love that because people often reduce branding to design when actually it's about memory. Annita (26:06) It's about your value preposition, your position, the thing that makes you different. And AI actually increases the importance of branding because it compresses the information, it summarizes everything. So it can reduce dozens of options to, let's say... free of recommendations if someone is looking for a tool or a business to work with. And you know, when information starts something similar, then something seems off. And the brand is what becomes a differentiator, because let's say they are looking for the best LMS. If everyone says that they are the best LMS for three reasons and everyone has these three reasons, where is the differentiator? Why should someone choose one tool instead of another? So that's where Brant makes the difference. It creates the recognition, trust and what every business needs. It influences decisions. Christopher Pappas (27:21) That is a really interesting perspective. So AI isn't making branding less important, it's making it even more valuable. Annita (27:31) Yes, and I genuinely believe that this is what's happening because, example, AI can summarize features. It can compare pricing. It can explain capabilities. There are the differences reputation that you've spent years earning. So with just one question, a user can see. What your business is, who you are, what you offer, how much you sell it, who needs it, who uses it more, just with one click. AI can't create reputation. It's based on what people have built, what others are saying about you. So companies investing in long-term brand building will definitely have a significant advantage. Maggie (28:22) 100%. And I think buyers feel that too, right? When they repeatedly see a company producing valuable insights, appearing in trusted publications, participating in industry discussions, sharing customer success stories, they naturally begin to trust that brand more. not because someone told them to, because they've experienced that brand consistently over time. Christopher Pappas (28:46) Which bring us back to something you said earlier. Marketing isn't just generating awareness anymore, Annita (28:57) Exactly. marketing isn't about convincing people anymore. It reduces uncertainty. So the easier you make it for buyers to trust you, the easier you make it for them to choose you. Christopher Pappas (29:10) So guys, if authority's earned and brands create trust, then the obvious next question becomes how should learning technology companies actually change their marketing strategy? Because understanding the shift is one thing, executing it is another. So imagine you're the chief marketing officer or the head of marketing at a learning technology company. You are listening to this conversation and thinking, okay, I get it. Things are changing. What is the first thing you will change? Maggie (29:51) Honestly, I'd stop obsessing over individual marketing channels. For years, we've asked, how do I improve SEO? How do we improve email? How do we improve paid campaigns? Those are still very important questions, but today I'd start with something much bigger. for example, how do buyers experience our brand across every touch point? Because buyers don't separate channels the way marketing teams do. They experience one round. Christopher Pappas (30:21) Maggie, that is a really good point. Internally, we have separated teams on sale, content, brand, commercial, demand generation. But sometimes we forget that buyers don't see departments. They only see one experience. Annita (30:39) That's a good point, Chris. And I think it's one of the biggest opportunities now. It's to stop thinking in campaigns and start thinking in ecosystems. Like we said, it's all about ecosystems these days. So instead of asking what articles should we publish next, the question should be what journey are we helping buyers to go through? Every article, webinar, podcast, report we are doing, whatever you know, should reinforce the same positioning, because that's how authority compiles over time. Christopher Pappas (31:18) I love that Anita, because ecosystems are much harder for competitors to copy. Annita (31:26) Exactly. Maggie (31:27) And I think consistency is hugely underestimated. Companies often change messaging every six months. New slogan, new positioning, new campaign. Meanwhile, their buyers are still trying to understand what the company actually stands for. Annita (31:42) That's so true, Maggie. And one of the biggest mistakes brands make is confusing activity with progress. Publishing more doesn't automatically make you more visible, or advertising more doesn't make you more memorable. Consistency is what builds memory. What are you known for? Because if you are talking about 50 different things, no one at the end. Who you are and why they should choose you. Memory influences buying decisions. That's the whole thing what marketing is trying to do. Maggie (32:25) Very true, very true. The market doesn't reward the busiest brands, it it actually rewards the clearest ones. Christopher Pappas (32:31) Some companies are publishing 10 times more content because AI allows them to. Is that actually the right strategy? Annita (32:39) Personally I don't think AI changes the objective, but it changes, as you said, the speed. Because it helps research become faster, you can generate ideas, repurpose content faster, analyze it. This is, don't get me wrong, this is incredibly valuable, but if everyone's using the same tools, then AI... isn't the competitive advantage anymore. It's all about your thinking, your expertise and your perspective. So AI surely can help to amplify the strategy, but it cannot replace it. Maggie (33:20) We completely agree, Anita. If AI allows everyone to produce more content, then simply producing more content stops being a differentiator, right? original insights, customer stories, research, and expertise become much, much more valuable here. Christopher Pappas (33:37) And that is actually a great paradox. The easier content becomes to create, the more valuable genuinely original thinking becomes. Annita (33:49) And that's why I think the brands that will lead over the next let's say five years won't necessarily be the brands publishing the most. The winners are going to be the brands that teach the market something new. The ones that help buyers understand problems differently. The ones that are sharing research as we said is very important you know to give new information to the world, the ones that are built in communities, like a learning industry, has done. Creating conversations, that's much harder to replicate, to be honest. Christopher Pappas (34:29) So guys before we wrap up, I would love each of you to leave marketing leaders with one piece advice. If someone just one thing from today's conversation, what would it be? Maggie (34:46) Mine is simple. stop asking, you know, how do we generate more traffic? And start asking how do we become the company buyers trust before they ever contact us? That single mindset shift changes almost every marketing decision. And I think, you know, sales teams are really gonna thank their marketing teams if they get this right. Christopher Pappas (35:09) Great advice, Maggie. Annita? Annita (35:14) I'd say that the future of marketing isn't about being everywhere, it's about being present in the moments that influence the decisions. Build authority, invest in trust and educate the market and help people make better decisions and if you keep doing that consistently, SEO improves. Brand improves, AI visibility also, demand, obviously, what everyone needs. So everything starts reinforcing everything else. It's like a domino effect. Maggie (35:58) 100%. You know, companies are no longer competing to be found. they're competing to become the brand, buyers and AI trusts enough to recommend. Christopher Pappas (36:09) And that is the perfect way to end. What is changing is how all those pieces, SEO, content, brand, works together. The companies succeed over the next two years will be the companies that consistently educate their market, build credibility and trust. Annita, Maggie, thank you both for a fantastic discussion and thanks to everyone for listening. If these conversations gave you a different perspective on where marketing is heading, we would love to hear your thoughts.