Christopher Pappas (00:02) Welcome to Scaling Leadership, the podcast where founders and business leaders share the strategies, decisions and lessons behind scaling successful companies. Christopher Pappas (00:15) Welcome to Scaling Leadership. I'm Christopher Pappas, CEO and founder of eLearning Industry. Today we're discussing something every learning technology company is trying to solve. How do you actually stand out in a market where everyone seems to say the same thing? Today I'm joined by two people who think about this challenge from very different perspectives. Annita leads our business transformation and innovation initiatives with a strong focus on brand strategy, content and AI visibility. And Maggie, our commercial director, works closely with learning technology vendors every day and has a front row seat to the challenges they are facing in the market. I'm looking forward to this conversation because I think there is often a big gap between what companies believe makes them different and what buyers actually remember. Maggie, let's start with you. Why do you think so many eLearning technology companies still end up sounding so similar? Maggie (01:33) To be honest, Christopher, I think it's because they're all trying to communicate value, but they end up using the same vocabulary. For example, we hear words like AI powered, personalized, scalable, data-driven all the time. Now these words aren't necessarily wrong. They've just become expected. The problem is when everyone is saying the same thing, buyers just stop hearing it. Christopher Pappas (01:58) That is true. That is true. Annita (01:58) Absolutely, because you see features describe products, but positioning explains why anyone should care about your product or service. So the truth is that the confused buyers don't really buy and that's why the clearest brand usually beats the loudest one. Christopher Pappas (02:20) That is interesting. So are we saying that companies don't actually have a product problem? They have a communication problem? Maggie (02:33) Many companies try to appeal to everyone. So they're trying to appeal to, you know, the large enterprises, the SMB companies. They want to talk about their compliance solutions, their leadership solutions, their upscaling solutions. And then they go and throw in AI. Eventually nobody knows what they're actually best at. Now, if your solution genuinely serves all of these audiences, that's great. But each buyer has different priorities, different challenges, and buying triggers, of course. You need a distinct message and marketing strategies for each person rather than just a single message that you blast out to everyone. Christopher Pappas (03:12) So pretty much what you are saying is that positioning actually becoming more important. Is that correct Annita? Annita (03:22) Absolutely. The brands people remember usually own one idea. For example, when someone says Salesforce, HubSpot, Canva, Notion, something immediately comes to mind because they are known for one specific thing they are good at. So many learning companies still want to own 20 different ideas, but that doesn't really work. You have to be... the best at one specific thing so that people will easily remember you. Christopher Pappas (03:55) So if people need a paragraph to understand what you do, your positioning probably isn't clear enough. A fair statement, right? Annita (04:08) Exactly. Maggie (04:08) Exactly. And your competitors can copy your product much faster than they can copy your reputation, right? Christopher Pappas (04:18) Absolutely. Annita (04:20) And as we can all see, marketing isn't a volume game anymore, it's a memory game. So you need to find how they will remember you. Christopher Pappas (04:32) So clarity isn't limiting. It's actually what makes growth possible. Annita (04:41) 100%. Maggie (04:45) I also think companies rely too heavily on product marketing. You know, everything is about features these days. Christopher Pappas (04:52) Buyers aren't searching for features, actually. They are searching for answers to their problems. Annita (04:58) Exactly, because that's the thing. Okay, obviously they'll need some features, but nobody wakes up and searches for an LMS with 17 integrations, for example. They are searching for, how do I onboard an employee faster? How do I reduce compliance risk? How do I improve engagement? The job of content is to actually help buyers solve problems, not buy a Maggie (05:26) People don't buy features, they buy confidence in a decision. Christopher Pappas (05:32) I love that, I love that because we need to hear it more often. That changes everything. So what actually creates credibility today, Maggie? Maggie (05:48) Now, I think the biggest thing here is that buyers trust what other people say about you much more than what you say about yourself. Annita (05:57) That's a 100% truth, Maggie. It's all about the words, reviews, customer stories, industry reports, expert mentions. Those things become trust signals. Christopher Pappas (06:11) So basically, if we can conclude in a sentence, what Annita and Maggie, Maggie and Annita, you're saying is that the credibility is becoming distributed. Annita (06:27) That's a great way to describe it, Chris. Companies used to build trust on their own website. But today trust is built everywhere else. Maggie (06:39) Your website introduces you. Everyone else helps to build your reputation. Annita (06:46) Exactly. Christopher Pappas (06:48) It makes total sense, at least to us. Annita (06:51) Hahaha Christopher Pappas (06:52) Okay, and let's talk about AI visibility, our favorite topic. Now let's introduce AI, okay. How does this change the game? Because the game has been changed. Annita (07:11) Well, I think it makes differentiation even more important because AI summarizes information. So if five companies sound identical, AI has very little reason to recommend one over another. So this is why you need to be different, to be featured as a business that solves different problems. Christopher Pappas (07:40) So Annita, if your messaging could be copied and pasted on your competitor's website, it isn't positioning. Annita (07:52) Yes, because you are saying the same thing as everyone else. Christopher Pappas (07:57) And Annita and Maggie, the truth is that what I just said, we have seen that in websites, that they are copying the message from another competitor and they put it on their website. And the funny thing is that it is not visible to the humans, but it's visible to the AI. Annita (08:20) Yes, because I can compare all the websites at the same time, that's the thing. But I think, Christopher, that this is not a marketing problem, it might be a business Christopher Pappas (08:33) No. Annita (08:33) problem as well. The strategy, I mean, behind all this. Maggie (08:40) Okay. I mean, essentially we're moving for from competing for rankings to competing for recognition, right? Christopher Pappas (08:50) And recognition only happens if people remember you. I hope for a good reason, not a bad reason. Annita (09:02) One thing is true. AI won't make brands more similar. It will expose which ones already are. Christopher Pappas (09:10) Annita, you nailed it. Annita (09:12) Mm. Christopher Pappas (09:13) Yeah, you nailed it. Maggie (09:16) Couldn't agree more. I like simplifying this into four areas. So I think about it as, you know, positioning, proof, presence, and promotion. Christopher Pappas (09:28) Walk me through them because that is very interesting. Maggie (09:31) Yes, absolutely. So positioning is being clear about who you help and why you're different. Proof is giving buyers confidence through customer success, through thought leadership, and of course industry recognition. Presence is making sure you're visible where buyers are researching solutions. And we all know that, you know, now that's that's changed, right? It's not just Google anymore. You know, there's obviously AI that you need to consider. But what hasn't changed though is that presence still in things like top list or trusted industry publications, that's still there as it was 10 years ago. and finally promotion, which is you know amplifying all of that through campaigns that reach the right audience at the right time. Annita (10:14) I'd actually argue, Maggie, here, that they are connected. If your positioning isn't clear, your content becomes generic. And if your content becomes generic, it's harder to earn proof. And without proof, presence becomes weaker. And then the whole promotion is actually more expensive. So your marketing budget goes to the roof. Maggie (10:42) Well, that's a great way to look at. Christopher Pappas (10:44) So back to the basics, marketing isn't a collection of tactics, it's a system. Marketing 101. Annita (10:56) Let's do one Maggie (10:56) I mean weak Annita (10:57) podcast about Maggie (10:57) positioning Annita (10:58) this. Christopher Pappas (11:00) we need to. We need to. Maggie (11:03) One 100%. yeah, exactly. I mean I think weak positioning makes every marketing channel work harder. Christopher Pappas (11:10) And we have seen that that in practice. Okay, so if you could change one thing about how learning companies market themselves tomorrow, what it will be, Maggie? Maggie (11:25) For me, it would be, I mean, I'd stop trying to be everything to everyone. the companies that stand out are the ones that are crystal clear about who they help and what problems they solve, and of course why they're different. Buyers don't remember companies that try to say everything, right? They remember companies that actually own something. Christopher Pappas (11:45) Annita? Annita (11:47) So true. Well, I'd spent less time asking what do we want to say and more time asking what do buyers actually need to hear. Christopher Pappas (11:58) Appreciate it. Annita (11:59) Because at the end of the day you need to solve their problems. What about you, Christopher? Christopher Pappas (12:05) Mine would be that stop chasing visibility for its own sake. Visibility without trust doesn't build a business. Standing out isn't about shouting louder. Maggie (12:26) Yeah, I know, it's about being easier to understand. It's that simple. Christopher Pappas (12:31) Great. Great. Annita (12:33) In a market where everyone sounds the same, clarity becomes your biggest competitive advantage. Christopher Pappas (12:40) Exactly, And guys, we know that features are getting compared, position gets remembered and that makes a differentiation a lot more than a brand new exercise. It's a growth strategy. Annita (12:59) So Maggie, what would you say? Have you seen clients that do have a specific positioning? Maggie (13:07) At eLearning Industry now for the last eight years, I mean, of course we've seen a ton of different marketing campaigns come out across all our channels. I'd say what always stands out to me is the companies that tend to do something different. The ones that are not trying to copy what other LMS companies, for example, are doing on eLearning Industry and they come in with fresh, a fresh innovative take and really focus on their USP. You know, doing something very creative and very fresh, they their campaigns tend to perform the best. you know, and I think that's something that hasn't changed from me joining the company eight years ago till today. when companies come to us and ask us, well, what is everyone else doing? That's never a good question. You know, it should be, here is what I'm about. How can you help me stand out in this crowded market? And I love it when I get that question because it just shows from the get-go that that company is gonna do really well. Really they're gonna be really successful with their campaigns on our site. Annita (14:13) Well, you have to help the audience to not get bored, as we said before, saying the same thing every time. They wouldn't have an interest to read about it or watch a webinar or whatever. But if you have a new idea on something, a new take on a topic, how to create a new strategy for a specific training, that's what they need. And the audience needs... deep knowledge as well, how they can do things in a specific way, not being generic, because you can read all over Google and in chat, GPT, these things. Christopher Pappas (14:55) Actually, Annita, think that what we're talking about is the underestimation of our buyers. Meaning the buyers are very sophisticated. They have a very specific problem and they want a solution to that problem. So we have two things. If you are promising things that you cannot deliver, it's a problem. Okay. The other thing is that the... immediately understand that you don't know what is their problem. And of course, you cannot solve that problem. If you cannot offer that solution, guess what? You will not build a relationship with them. Annita (15:41) And they might, Christopher Pappas (15:41) And the thing is, it's not to open the door, it's to stay in the room. Meaning that if you have them for one, two, three or four months, it means nothing. You should have clients that they will stay with you, they will trust you, you are going to build a relationship with them. Sorry, I need to go again. Annita (16:04) Exactly, that's what came to mind as you were speaking about this. they might... Okay, your marketing might have worked, they might try your tool, but if there isn't retention, if they try the tool and it doesn't solve the specific problem, then you're just a tool they used for two months and they forget about you and they will never use the tool again. Again, to build trust you have to understand the challenge and offer what solves this challenge. Christopher Pappas (16:42) Yeah, yeah. And guys, maybe it's irrelevant, but we might need to talk about it on another topic because we are familiar about Black Hat SEO strategies. But right now we're getting in the era of Black Hat GEO strategies, meaning that some companies, they put scripts on their websites that are not visible to humans but they are visible to LLMs and they try to manipulate the LLMs. Guys, that is not a good strategy. Because, why? Because if you manipulate the LLM at some point they will find it out. First thing. Second thing. If a buyer visits your website because you manipulated the LLM, guess what? He will be extremely disappointed with your solution. Okay, so guys, do not do this kind of stuff. I mean, come on, go, have a good reputation, be present in top lists, in top websites, let people talk about you. Do not pay people to talk about you on Reddit. Come on guys. Okay. Maggie (18:02) just on what Christopher Pappas (18:02) Yeah. Maggie (18:03) you're saying too, in terms of like really, you know, I guess distributing where you market yourself, like I think one thing we forget is that timing is everything. So, you know, you could have the same potential buyer see you on one side or have come to your website, but that does not mean that they're going to buy because they're not ready. What you want to make sure you're doing is that you're actually targeting all of those different marketing channels out there. You know, so that when someone is ready to buy, you've already built that brand credibility with them and that they come to you. They don't go to your competitor. Annita (18:38) Exactly. It's a... Sorry, Christopher. With this example, every time I'm thinking how we're searching, for example, to buy a smartphone. And you know, you'll go and search for the best smartphone, the best value for money, the one that has the features that you need, the battery that lasts longer, etc. It's the same thing with any other tool, business or service. You have to be in the top lists Christopher Pappas (19:08) it Annita (19:10) and people are actually comparing at that moment. It's the decision stage. Christopher Pappas (19:18) Annita and Maggie we know that this is a marathon it's not a sprint meaning that if you're doing tactics, short-term tactics for a month or two months you might have some guys that the timing is perfect but in the long run you are going to lose the game because you are using not good tactics okay you underestimate again your buyers you just want to have super fast outcomes that guys that is not going to help you okay it's a marathon say the truth okay do not underestimate your buyers wait and you will see your business is going to grow Annita (20:08) By the way Christopher, nice t-shirt you've got over there, I forgot to mention... Christopher Pappas (20:16) It is nice guys and I have to send you a present I think that all the guests that I invite here, Annita (20:20) Yes, definitely! Christopher Pappas (20:22) I need to send them a present on the color that they want. Motivation, training and success. We will keep that, okay? We can change the color. Annita (20:32) The best combination Christopher Pappas (20:36) Okay guys, thank you very much for coming. Maggie, nice to see you. I hope to see you again. Annita, I love to talk with you. We have a lot of fun guys. Annita (20:47) Me too, Christopher. Maggie (20:49) Thanks so much for having me Annita (20:49) See you guys! Maggie (20:50) and I look forward to the next one. Christopher Pappas (20:54) Thanks for listening to Scaling Leadership. If you enjoyed this episode, subscribe to the channel for more conversations with leaders who are building, growing and scaling the businesses of tomorrow.